What to reinstate?

[Thethinker]

Not the best topic to open with i realize. But i made up my mind. I wanna get back on a drug and stabilize and then do a slow taper if possible.

i was hoping you guys could give me some advice.

I have had a serious anxiety disorder my whole life. I could manage to live a life (just had nightmares as a kid and avoided stuff) untill age 22. Then i developed insane agoraphobia and social anxiety. I couldnt speak to anyone without panic. After a year of hell i started to swallow paxil. I also went into a clinic for CBT. Slept there during the week. And with CBT and paxil i managed to get a bit of a life. off course never really happy and side effects like getting fat, need for alcohol etc. But i had some life. Friends, sports, work etc. It was hard now and then with anxiety but still.

I grew as a person and things got better. I was always on 20 mg paxil so i tapered to 15 mg in 2010 (now 11 years on paxil). This went ok. I continued life. Until 1,5 later my agoraphobia came back. Also my social anxiety. it started at work giving a presentation and i got anxious. Next week with friends at the tennisbar, 3 weeks later in a store, etc etc. Before i knew it it was july 2011 and i had to call in sick from work. My agoraphobia and social anxiety was full blown back. I had panic attacks also at home now. And i couldnt speak to a living soul without panic.

In october 2011 i went to a psychiatrist and he told me that lexapro is a much better drug. So he did a cold turkey switch on me. within 1 day i was from 15 mg paxil to 10 mg lexapro. Hell broke lose. 3 weeks of WD flu like i had malaria. But the anxiety was insane. Couldnt sleep. My mother (i am 36) had to hold my hand in bed etc etc. But wahats worst; ..my mind shut down somehow. I got serious dp/dr. I viewed the world as being not real. I wasnt connected to my body anymore. I just felt like 2 eyes on the world. Also i had a lot of brain fog. It went worse and worse untill dec 2011 i was hospitalized in the mental ward. They increased to 20 mg lexapro but hell stayed. I couldnt sleep at all. They gave me 50 mg oxazepam. But soon the oxa was contraworking and kept me from sleeping. I left the hospital because they werent really helping and went living with my parents.

I tapered the lexapro. I also tapered the oxazepam. Medio may 2012 i was off all drugs. now 3 months and 2 weeks. But things havent improved. My sleep is better. But my anxiety is still very high. Cant leave the house for far. The dp/dr is still after 10 months there. Never lifted for 1 sec. And i keep getting panic. Also still cant speak to anybody except a doctor and my parents. I practise but the panic is insane. I had this problem before the drugs and its only worse now.

Last few weeks i feel like i am at the end of my robe. The panic is getting worse and the now 14 months of panic is getting to me. I get more and more weird thoughts and feelings. Like i am scared of myself. As if the world is not real and i feel so unreal. it is very hard to explain. like i dont know who i am. And i dont mean that on a philosophical level. It's just like my mind, my being feels unreal. Like the pieces of myself are scattered. Like i see myself and scare myself. Like that voice in my head feels weird and scares me. I feel like i am losing it.
And the anxiety level is through the roof. If someone walks by the house i get scared like they are coming to get me. And my arms and legs are numb due to panic so i dont feel them anymore.

Anyways its enough. First of all i have a very very severe original anxiety disorder to start with. Perhaps one that needs to be medicated for always (all though i dont believe in the serotonin deficiency). And secondly the WD is insane. I think i am gonna hurt myself if i keep like this. I can also feel my mind scattering; every day a bit more.
So a drug it is. But what drug? The doctor says a small dose of antipsychotics. Something i always refused but since i am starting to be scared of myself and the whole world feels unreal;...perhaps. it is the most horrible feeling in the world to even be scared of holding a glass of water cause it feels so unreal,..its beyond DP.
But besides antipsychotics (which i still might refuse) i need a drug. Doctor was thinking of an TCA;..but i dont know;..its to oldschool. But she also said that paxil helped me greatly over the years. So she wnts me back on that.

normally i would take paxil again...if not that this whole HELL started with paxil not working anymore. There is only 1 problem. Before paxil pooped out on me i dropped from my normal dose of 20 mg to 15 mg. But it was a year or more before my breakdown. Could that be the cause? A bit wd ok;..but 5 mg less and my original problem is back like that? Could paxil work on me again? Going back on a different ssri after my hell with lexapro doesnt seem right. But waiting is NOT an option anymore;..so please dont suggest that. I dont wanna hurt myself or lose my mind. I hope someone can answer my questions:

1.) Could i have been the 15 mg paxil that drove me back? (all though i find it eird that 5 mg less can undo all my cbt lessons and exposure therapy) Or was it poopout?

2.) Is it possible, all though not likely, that after a poopout when you are off the drug for 10 monhts,..that paxil might work again? An article (CLICK) says so. Any truth to that? or has anyone ever seen it?

3.) The hell that started after paxil to lexapro switch. Was that proberbly due to paxil wd or adverse reaction to lexapro? I had and still have :
- brain fog
- adrenaline bursts
- anxiety
- panic
- burning nerves (like in boiling water all day)
- Dp/DR
- unreality feeling
- racing thoughts
- bad vision
- fears
- very over sensitized nerves system

A note: a.) i never had much physical symtoms like zaps etc b.) some of those symptoms i had before all rugs c.) i had them all when i was on lexapro aswell. It didnt decrease it at all.

4.) What would you guy advice me? TCA? another ssri? back to paxil? All 3 have pros and cons. i can mak an argument for all of them. If i will go back on pail i will try with 1 mg pr week increase.

THANKS for any help

[stan]

hi Thethinker, welcome,

as you have experienced, contrary that you wrote, many people cannot be entire life on these meds, and there is no guaranty that during the time you take one, you will feel well or near well as you have been;
when the body reject these artificial chemical neurological poisons and do no more the homeostasy(accept to balance all body with this chemical product), nobody knows what pill will work;
each people, apparently, one day(after 5 years for some, after 15 years for others etc) experience poopout or tolerance;
apparently you say stay off is no more an option for you;
our site is helping people who will no more swallow these craps,
we are not specialized in what psychotropic to take in your case; doctors spend their life in prescribing, adding several, cold turkeing, switching, you were in hospital, so you have seen their knowledge etc
to answer your questions, for me, doing CBT while drugged or post drugged(your case) is waste of time, CBT is effective with no drugged people
retake paxil after being in poopout, cold turked and after 10 months, i would not try, too risky but when not tried, nobody knows if it will work again...( you had at that time to taper slowly, even in poopout); generally when someone retakes a same pill after months, the pill is no more as effective as it was even when never in poopout;
your symptomes are big part of paxil withdrawal, adding lexapro, cold turkey and switching, and all this will take many months to diminish

i was similar as you, 12 years paxil , cold turked, switched on celexa by doctor, i tapered 11 months and tried to hold; i was as you anxious , today am bad but do not regret, had no choice and will try to never take a psychotropic again

[Sheila]

Welcome, Thethinker. You are going to be OK. You have to heal from the medications and you have to get good non-medication help for your original anxiety.

Here is my best guess about a plan for you at this point. This is just based on your post, your situation is complex, there is no obvious right answer.

You have been off Lexapro and Oxazepam since May 2012 after short taper. And you have been off Paxil since October 2011.

It is very likely that the hell you experienced starting from October 2011 was due to “cold turkey” withdrawal (w/d) from Paxil, and not necessarily from a bad reaction to Lexapro. Ad now, you are in w/d from lexapro and Oxazepam.

I would consider reinstating a low dose of Lexapro and Oxazepam – not more than 25 % of your original dose. And then stabilizing for a month, and then tapering very, very slowly – 10% of current dose of just one of the medications every 3 weeks.

At the same time, I would seriously invest time in meditation, relaxation techniques, brain wave entrainment, exercise, reading uplifting psychological or other texts. We can also talk to you about strengthening and calming your nervous system with Omega-3 and magnesium.

Definitely, I would not add a new medication – that will just create more damage to your brain. And I think you have been off Paxil for long enough that it is not a good idea to reinstate it. You have accomplished a lot of w/d from Paxil, don’t waste that effort.

Depersonalization / derealization are very common effects of these medications. That will heal with time.

You really need to start some gentle, alternative therapies to address your original anxiety. You cannot stay on these medications for life. They are habit-forming and iatrogenic. They will make you sicker.

This is very doable, Thethinker. A lot of people have gone down this path before you. You will get your life back!

[Thethinker]

Thanks for your replies. I realize that this is an anti-AD forum. But above all i hope its a forum to make people better again.

@stan: I could never do what you did. 3,5 years and still be in hell. I simply am not that strong. Besides that; my family is going down with me. I live alone and i am depending to much on my parents and sisters. And they are suffering badly. Also my job. i called in sick 14 months ago and within 2 months i will be fired. Where do i get money then? I cant speak to a single soul without insane dp and panic. Not a friend, colleague, neighbor etc.
I have read many forums and i know that i am one of the worst cases. but i guess everybody says that. I just want some relief. Off course i want to do this medfree. But not at the expense of the death of my mother (incredible high blood pressure now, losing hair, dizzy spells cause she worries so much and sees me going into my grave). Also i can not take this pain no more. DP/DR and anxiety are horrible in itself. But i am losing touch with reality. Like i am scared of my own body, of my own soul. I feel unreal, more then simple DP, but like i am touching psychoses. And still my own original problem is there; i can not go outside or talk to someone. I can not describe this and i know no-one will understand. But its horrible and it scares me. I can not take it no more. i tried and i failed. And the worst part of it all;...a part of me doesnt want to get better. if i think about this all being gone in a year and i be "myself" again;..it scares me and i feel a big no in my body. How in hellsname can someone desire this?

Stan, i know some people in real life who are on paxil for 21 years and it didnt poopout on them. I also know people that are on ADs their whole life. So it doesnt always have to b that ADs fail. Do NOT get me wrong;..i would rather be of meds at all. Thats why i hold on for so long (9 months since i started tapering lexapro wich in hell is long). But i am starting to believe that these meds are very over prescribed, that they poopout and that they can bring hell. BUT that they serve their purpose for a few. I didnt take these meds cause of some anxiety or cause of mild depression. I couldnt speak to people or leave the house. I was very scared of death like i was when i was a kid. I had to be brought to a special clinic. Sometimes i wonder why people accept meds for BP, psychoses, but not for these severe anxiety disorders?
I know that these meds are garbage. Thats whats drivin me insane;..that i have to chose beween hell with mes or hell with my own disorder. Perhaps i can beat my disorder without the WD. But i cant wait another 2 years for that. Yesterday i tried to speak to someone but he panic was so high. I heard a bang in my head and a long loud peep in my ears and i thought i was gonna die. I fell down. These things are so scary and i can not take them anymore.
And now the unreality kicked in. My mom thinks i should take a small dose of antipsychotics to bring myself to me again. To calm me. Perhaps she is right. I can not look at myslf in the mirror no more without freaking out. I dont feel my body or my soul.

You say reinstating 10 months after poopout is risky. But i was wondering why its risky? how much worse could this get? And i havent made any progress at all so what could i lose? Also i as wondering why 10 months is a bad thing? Isnt it so that the more months you are away from the poopout, the bigger chance the meds work again?

I know you hate the meds stan and i am really sorry that i sound so stubborn and cranky. its just because i am so scared. I wish i had you strength but i dont.

@sheila: thanks for your time and effort.
I know many have walked this path before me, but i wonder if they had the same severe original problem as i have. Anyways, i am losing it. Every day is a hell. My mom called the crisisward of the hospital this morning and they can take me in. They will put me back on paxil and antipsychotics. I am desperatly seeking for another ay. But i think i am a bit further then where meditation can help. Also i keep telling myself in my head that this is hell, that it gets worse. I dont know why i do that ;..why i cant stop these racing thoughts. but i cant. I am not strong enough. My fear is driving the bus and i am tryign to get the wheel but i dont know who are what i am anymore. Sometimes i close my eyes and i look deep inside. I wanna feel the real me. Where is the normal guy that was on paxil. Where is the guy that was happy (also anxious but happy) in highschool> I try to connect to myself. To leave this shallow world of anxius thoughts and dp. But when i feel him; i get so incredibly scared and anxious. How can i be scared of myself. I can not describe it. I am messed up.

And what can i do? Just stay in the house for another year? Not able to speak to anyone or do anything. Just rot away nonstop in my own thoughts? WD is a hell for everyone. but my original problem is not helping. I wish i could just take a walk or see some friends. Just to take my mind of.

I dont know if getting back on lexapro is a good idea sheila. I had a feeling it wasnt my drug. Cause when i wend up from 10 to 15 to 20 mg; it only made me feel worse. It made me feel real brainfoggy. Like in a bubble. I read lexapro has that tendency on some people. Also it didnt do much for the paxil wd.
But you also think it can get worse when i reinstate paxil? Could it get worse? How do all these other people do it? they are 10 years on anafril, then 10 years paxil, then 10- years lexapro etc etc. Yes its not ideal but i see them laughing and living their lives. I HATE meds but this is also no living.

I so hope i cant go psychotic from this situation. 10 months i had sever DP/DR. I recognised my body but didnt feel it. The world felt like 2d. But now the brainfog is slowly lessening;..the hell is bigger. The anxiety of not recognizing my body and world feels harder. Like i am losing my mind. Could that be? Could i lose my mind? Can anxiety do this? Can it make me feel this way? Or am i going insane? And how can it be that still a part of me doesnt wan to get better. that he "enjoys" this hell. how can that be? Then i will never get better. This is going to be the death of me. i am very worried. Sheila i am scared. Somethings gotta give. I wish i could find some innerstrenght or believe in myself. But still that wouldnt take away my severe wd and original disorder.

SORRY if i sound so negative.

[Luc]

Hey, Thinker! So sorry to read about all that suffering you're going through. Please, do remember that those terrible uncontrollable thought are WD, and NOT real you.

Adding a new medication will eventually worsen the situation. Then the next and next will be needed. I think that what Sheila said about the low dose of Lexapro and Oxazepam would be a good option. It would help you to stabilise, and when you feel ready, you would start tapering it very slowly.

In your post, you mentioned not being strong enough. Believe me, you ARE strong, but you may not realize this yet.

As much as you are suffering right now, you will heal. Yes, it may take some time, but it is absolutely achievable. Hang in there as best as you can, and please read this

http://antidepressantwithdrawal.info...t=neuroemotion

It will help you a lot. Stay brave!

[Cosette123]

I can understand you, The thinker.I can understand the hell you are passing through.I was 15 years old when I had my first "attack" of depersonalization/Derealisation. Nothing worse in my whole life! But I had the chance to see an homeopath (Thanks to my parents!)who found the right treatment(With acupuncture). Several years ago I had again the same symptomes which led me to the same hell..It was impossible to share the hell I was passing through.I only told my doctor:"Help me,I am afraid of being schizophrenic".It was not the same doctor than years ago and this one put me on "Survector ",an antidepressant and Xanax.After a few weeks the derealization decreased but it never totally disappeared.I always has been a person who feels different from others...
Strangely during my Paxil w/d I had only mild symptomes of derealzation but I had the agoraphobia and panic attacks...Which I never had before.
Luc is right:add a new medication will worsen your situation.And remember that you are stronger that you believe.
My thoughts are with you.

[Thethinker]

Well i have no choice. I cant live like this no more. Again today i spend 15 hours on the bathroom floor with pure hell. So either it is suicide or a medication. Its that simple. I will think about sheilas suggestion. its unfortunate that no-one gave their opinion on the question "do you think even very severe anxiety disorders need to be lived with without meds?". Isnt the evil of such a disorder worse then the evil of the drugs?

Everybody is so sure. the doctor says "paxil will work again for you". Forums say "new medication will worsen your situation". The psychiatrist says "i have 1000s of people in my clientdatabase that are on ADs there whole life and live happy"...the forum says "people can not be on meds for their entire life"

For once i wish someone would think of me instead of making a point. Whats best for me and just admit they dont know. Nobody knows. But everybody talks in certainties.

i thank you all for your time and effort.

[Sheila]

Thethinker – You definitely have a more difficult situation that some people because of having severe anxiety *before* meds, but, still, you are not alone. There are many others in the same boat.

I hear that you are desperate and really having trouble holding on to reason. I want to say clearly that I do think you can heal your original anxiety and your medication-induced anxiety without meds. Given my experience, I would say it is preferable to make healing a priority right now rather than functioning well in the world. Meditation may, indeed, be impossible for you right now, and no therapy will work very well in the immediate future, but many things you can do will slowly help over time.

However, I also support you if you decide that your best course of action is to take psych meds for now, get some significant relief from the hell, start working on various therapies, and then, perhaps, in a few years, when you have grown and healed some more, start the process of weaning off medications. I think this is a reasonable course of action.

Whatever you decide, more options will become open to you in the future. Things will not stay as dire as they are now. You are doing a great job of fighting for yourself. That determination will serve you well. In a complicated situation like this, it's good to collect input from others, but trust your own intellect, intuition, and experience. Also, whatever you decide now, you can change your mind in a month or a year, as you collect more experience and input. Above all, try to be as compassionate to yourself as possible. You are really doing an excellent job in a really awful situation.

[stan]

Well i have no choice. I cant live like this no more. Again today i spend 15 hours on the bathroom floor with pure hell. So either it is suicide or a medication. Its that simple. I will think about sheilas suggestion. its unfortunate that no-one gave their opinion on the question "do you think even very severe anxiety disorders need to be lived with without meds?". Isnt the evil of such a disorder worse then the evil of the drugs?

Everybody is so sure. the doctor says "paxil will work again for you". Forums say "new medication will worsen your situation". The psychiatrist says "i have 1000s of people in my clientdatabase that are on ADs there whole life and live happy"...the forum says "people can not be on meds for their entire life"

For once i wish someone would think of me instead of making a point. Whats best for me and just admit they dont know. Nobody knows. But everybody talks in certainties.

i thank you all for your time and effort.

hi the thinker,

i have another view, we are drugged with heavy drugs since years, similar cocaine and extasy, when it does no more work and we need to double the dose or switch for heroine to have relief a certain time, what do? can we take heroine entire life? lessen to the legal prescriber? taper and suffer as hell during months and years(and be part non functioning, loose job etc)?

this is a personal choice, each people makes what he thinks is the best for him, over the web we find the two categories, we invent nothing

you have been a anxiety emotional
today you are a anxiety emotional and drugged

[Luc]

I so understand your pain, Thinker. In such hellish moments all we want is the darn relief from the torture. And even if you get back on the drugs, I really believe that one day you will be able to live without them. And, once you stabilise on the drugs, you will look at things differently. What I would still advise you though, is first trying out just a partial dose of them.