What to reinstate?

[Thethinker]

Thanks everybody,

All though i know i sound a bit harsh and negative i am still greeted here with kindness and honesty. That means a lot to me.

It's just that i am in much pain. Otherwise i would try to stick with the WD and sing it out. But last week things got very much worse. And they were hellish already. But i think my CNS and my mind is at its limit. Last two days i had to take 15 mg oxazepam. It was either that or drive myself to the hospital. But some weird stuff is going on. Since i did that ct switch to lexapro in october some things came and go (besides my original agoraphobia and anxiety). I had insomnia but went away. I had itching but went away, etc etc. But two things always remained: the depersonalisation and the burning nerves. I been hospitalized twice since oct 2011. But this week things got worse. Especially yesterday and today. The depersonalisation turned into almost insanity. I can not describe this. Its like i dont feel myself. Like i am scared of my self. When i close my eyes and try to feel myself like "thinker, this is you. You know who you are, you played tennis, went to school etc". But i feel so unreal then and anxiety spikes beyond believe. Like i am scared that i am alive. Like my mind is scattered in 1000 pieces.
Also the burning nerves have turned into a giagantic upset in my CNS. I have no idea why or what changed. But my whole body feels like its on fire. It actually hurts. And now and then i feel a lot of pressure on my head. And my muscles, especially hands, spasm. And i have difficulty walking cause it feels like my body is differently oriented. I cant explain. Like my arm is lower, my leg is higher etc etc. I think its because my cns is so messed up.
And i keep scaring myself cause i have the feeling of losing control. I am grasping and trying to hold on to my sanity. But even with 15 mg oxazepam its hard. If i dont do something now i am afraid i wont come back. Especially since my anxiety/personality disorder isnt helping at all. I hate myself for that. A part of my "enjoys" this hell. Or at least is afraid to get better. Also i keep putting oil on the flames with my thoughts "thinker, you will go mental, you will lose it, something will happen". Its like i need this anxiety. And i think about it all day long. WHY of WHY. Why cant i turn away my attention. I hate my weakness. But i dont know who i am anymore. I dont remember being this way before paxil. It must be partialy WD. Cause no matter how severe the anxiety disorder; people always can run from it. I was happy with agoraphobia in my own house. Not the way to go in the end. But now i cant even find peace in the dark on my own bed. I am seriously losing it.

Every hour is now agony. Seriously, i been in hell since paxil pooped out july 2011 and have been home since then. Been hospitalized twice in a closed mental ward, stripped from my belt and shoelaces. and still it was way better then this week. So something has to be done. I look at every train and i think about suicide a lot. I dont want it to get worse where i wanna lessen the pain. Basicly i have a few options:

1.) The doc wants me on zyprexa. On a low dose. I know its risky and people here hate it. But it will work fast and calm me and my system down. I know people in real life who benefited a lot from a small dose for 1 month. Again;..i hope you guys realise how badly shaped i am. I dont have DP/DR anymore but 3 steps further. But just zyprexa and hope it will be better when i stop. So no other meds. I am scared of zyprexa though. But i need piece of mind and find myself again.

2.) I could stay on oxazepam for 3 weeks and hope this is a wave i can ride out with the oxazepam calming my body. But even if the wd is passed..can i at this moment live with my own disorder? Just thinking about meeting someone or going out on the street turns my stomach. If i close my eyes and think that from now within a few months i can be happy;..i feel a big no in my body. I am so so scared for live. I was as a kid and WD only makes it bigger. But even if wd lessens;..how to get passed this. It really kills all my motivation and i dont see a way out

3) I could start zyprexa OR oxazepam and a ssri and drop zyprexa in a month in the hope the ssri does it work.


Since i am almost screaming today from mental and body pain i am thinking about zyprexa and a ssri. But i am a bit scared of zyprexa. Its a heavy heavy med. But then again i am in a heavy situation.
If i start an ssri its hard to decide which one. I really dont wanna use lexapro. Since it really brought me hell. Perhaps that was cause of paxil wd..still i dont feel good with it. Then i can go back to paxil. But will it work again? Or perhaps a different ssri like zoloft or prozac. But prozac is stimulating.

I did learn in my year of research that these drus are no good. I read "your drug might be your problem". I read lots of studies and articles and everything by Healy. So i know i have to taper within 2 years from now. All though i hope i can live without drugs then. But like i said; there is no alternative;..i have to do something.

My questions to you. I know you cant guarentee anything but your best guess would be much appreciated:

1.) From the above mentioned 3 options; which would you pick?

2.) My original problem came back in full force between july and oct 2011. Is it most like that this happened cause of a poopout or cause I decreased from my usual 20 mg to 15 mg nine months before. Is that possible?

3.) If paxil pooped out on me;..did you ever heard of somebody where it worked again?

4.) What ssri would you recommend? paxil, zoloft or prozac.

Thanks a lot.

GUYS I KNOW YOU HATE IT TO ADVICE ON DRUGS AND YOU HATE EVERYTHING THESE DRUGS STAND FOR. Me too and i know i ask a great deal of your sympathy to ask you these questions. But i simply cant go on. I can only hope some drug will find me relief and i can work on myself and my real issues and then do a slow taper. All though i hve no idea who this is possible. For an anxiety disorder this is bizar (while typing this my body feels really like 2nd degree burnwounds and i cant look at my reflection in the window cause it freaks me out)...but for a WD this is also very severe. So i hope to god i am not losing it.
I wish i had more strength. But it feels like i am holding on to my insnity instead of correcting it. Like i "cherish"it. How sick am i. I just want my self back,...all though i dont remember him since i was on drugs at age 18-19 years and 24-36. But at least bring me some peace..please.

[stan]

if you stay taking nothing, you will suffer hell and with time all will diminish, your cns is in chaos, you are in withdrawal;
adding an old drug, will remove all your cns again,
adding a new drug without having tapered the old is nonsense , it will not cover the withdrawal from the olds but will have his own side-effects;
the danger is the movings, the brain do not like changes; and one danger is to have akathisia, i have it;
retake an old can give relief or make things worse, nobody knows what will happen; try as Sheila told

[Sheila]

All the symptoms you describe are scary, but they are not dangerous. We have all had them – at times, very intensely. With experience, you will find that you continue to exist and continue to be at least somewhat yourself even during these horrible symptoms.

It’s great that you are aware that a part of you wants to be in hell. Many people have some degree of ambivalence about being healthy and strong, but very few people can admit that to themselves. You are one step ahead of the crowd in that you are able to face this in yourself.

You are definitely experiencing the effects of severe w/d. No one can overcome those effects by sheer will power. When the w/d effects become more moderate, then you can use willpower.

Yes, it sounds like things got bad between July – Oct 2011 because of the 5 mg decrease in Paxil nine months prior. Paxil w/d notoriously gets worse around 5-9 months after decreassing.

If Paxil pooped out on you, it might work again, but would probably require a higher dose.

Of the choices you give, I would just stay on the Oxazepam. It will continue to give you more benefit as you continue to take it.

I know you are in hell, but it would be better to stick with one of the three drugs you’ve already been exposed to and wait for them to take effect. If you choose to take something else, we will still support you.

Does it help your burning pain to be in water? I get burning feet, and putting them in room temperature water helps like magic. Fans and ice packs also help, but not as well.

[Thethinker]

Thanks a lot guys.

Sheila you say you continue to exist and be yourself. But i dont know who that is. I had mental problems all my life since a kid and i am scared of myself. I wish i had normal years and faith in myself so i had a beacon to return to, like you guys. But i just remember fear and failure all my life. And off course wd is tainting my memory but still the statistics speak for itself. I always had much trouble with myself and life.

It is hard. I have so many problems that i dont know how to escape this. I wish i just had taken paxil cause of IBS and i knew this was WD. Off course some of it is. But my insane fear of death, being alone, losing control, agoraphobia, fear to speak to people;..its all there. I was a shaking leaf before paxil and i am again. All though to my memory it wasnt this bad before paxil. But still it was bad.

Another problem is that i been diagnosed with chronic hyperventilating a year ago. Apparently i do that for years now. Not acute hyperventilating nut 12-19 breaths per minute all day every day. Cause of a wrong "setting" in the breathing center of my brain. Anyways with paxil sedating it the effects where annoying but manageable. Now in WD i think it also contributes to the fact that my CNS is messed up. I have trouble holding a pen or something,..shaking and burning. I type this with 2 crooked fingers. I can work on this CHV but best way is to take an AD so your cns takes a break. Then do lots of breathing exercises and body exercises. And then taper the AD. Thats how they do it in the breathing clinic here. But off course i can not take an AD that easily.
But this breathing problem is not helping me and doing some simple exercises is not going to help it. It needs to be a 2 hr per day routine.

Sheila, in july 2011 all my old symptoms came back. Like i wasnt taking the paxil anymore. But it wasnt the hell like this. i was just housebound again. But it didnt work at all anymore. But you speak of WD. Shouldnt i have zaps/dp/burning nerves etc etc if it was WD? Is there a difference between WD and a drug just not working no more?
Thats the annoying part. These ssris work maximum of 20 years. And then what? Still i see a lot of people in real life and forums change from one ssri to another without problems their whole lives. They are the majority. How in godsname do they do that?
But even if i get back on paxil and it works; it will buy me 5 years or so. So in those 5 years i will have to work hard on my real issues and then taper very slowly.

I hope it gets better. I dont know how you guys manage to live like this. I am shaking from fear and my body isnt working well and my mind is scattered. LAst week i cant do much more then just lay down and be afraid.

I will try that water tip Sheila, thanks a lot.

One last question: did any of you try to reinstate at some point?

[Luc]

Hey, Thinker!

It is hard. I have so many problems that i dont know how to escape this. I wish i just had taken paxil cause of IBS and i knew this was WD. Off course some of it is. But my insane fear of death, being alone, losing control, agoraphobia, fear to speak to people;..its all there. I was a shaking leaf before paxil and i am again. All though to my memory it wasnt this bad before paxil. But still it was bad.

I so understand you, and I do realize that hearing such words when suffering hell is difficult to believe, but it's absolutely possible to heal from it (both from WD and the original condition itself). But, what you're feeling right now is *very much* withdrawal. I'm 100% certain that, as much as there may be some original condition involved, throughout all those years you have grown, matured, and learnt to deal with the problems better than in the past. The thing is your ability to function better in social circumstances is not only the pill itself, but a normal process of life-learning, coping with certain inhibitions, etc.

I have bolded the very important part of your post. That is, unfortunately, the sad truth about those drugs. At some point, they lose their effectiveness, and start to work just the opposite.

Another problem is that i been diagnosed with chronic hyperventilating a year ago. Apparently i do that for years now. Not acute hyperventilating nut 12-19 breaths per minute all day every day. Cause of a wrong "setting" in the breathing center of my brain.

The chance is that this may have been the sign of the tolerance withdrawal you started experiencing then, which would mean that it resulted from the drugs themselves. Of course, it's just my guess.

Thats the annoying part. These ssris work maximum of 20 years. And then what? Still i see a lot of people in real life and forums change from one ssri to another without problems their whole lives. They are the majority. How in godsname do they do that?

It's not always the case. Please, have a look at this; http://www.breggin.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=187 I, too, thought that the drugs are helping me, the very drugs that turned me into a suffering 24/7/365 shell of a human being. Besides, not too many psychiatrists admit what is really going on. Side-effects from the drugs? Tolerance WD? WD? Adverse effects? They will usually put it down to the patient's original condition. And give you more pills.

But even if i get back on paxil and it works; it will buy me 5 years or so. So in those 5 years i will have to work hard on my real issues and then taper very slowly.

The more you will be reading about it, the more you will be realizing that you will be able to live without the drugs, even if you decided to re-instate. The thing is that the Big Pharma *won't* tell you there're alternative, non-drug and much better ways to deal with it. They (Big Pharma) would disappear overnight if they did.

I hope it gets better. I dont know how you guys manage to live like this. I am shaking from fear and my body isnt working well and my mind is scattered. LAst week i cant do much more then just lay down and be afraid.

Hang in there as best as you can, Thinker! Please, do know that all those terrible symptoms are, in fact, *not* real you. It's the result of the WD. It's scary, tortuous, but it's *not* real you. Even if there was the "original condition". See the sentence I bolded earlier.

[Cosette123]

I hope it gets better. I dont know how you guys manage to live like this. I am shaking from fear and my body isnt working well and my mind is scattered. LAst week i cant do much more then just lay down and be afraid.

I experiment those intense fears in w/d:fear to get up the morning, fear to drive, fear of my future,fear of death(It's obsessional). I try to manage to live with these fears because, as Luc wrote:these fears are not me.They are w/d induced
I know it can be really awful and unbearable .Did you try to go outside with somebody who could reassure you?

One last question: did any of you try to reinstate at some point?
Yes I did in december 2009 :my doctor put me on Prozac and Xanax.I had one week of sudden "happiness" (Too nice to be true!) and I quickly experimented the return of the worst symptomes:anxiety +++, suicidal ideas...So I stopped both Xanax and Prozac.You seem to have a big problem of anxiety since youth(Like I have: I use to say that I have not had a happy childhood:I learnt to manage with OCD and high anxiety):it's normal that during w/d you feel worse than "before".But it will pass.And you are strong enough to pass through that.Try to believe in you:you are not psychotic ,you have been conscious of your problem.

[stan]

we are not equal in front of the legal drugs, some are able to take 10 years before poopout, others only 2 years; one theory is the slow metabolizer in liver;
another observation is when body begins to reject this artificial chemical disrupt perturber (you are in chaos), people who continue have very much more difficulties to reach a temporarily relief with high doses, and have to add many other disrupter to thwart the side-effects, they become polydrugged
do these products cure you? this is sure: never; they crush your symptomes, emotions, natural fear terror feelings, they make you zombie vegetable
today you have an insight of their power
i think you have today neurological damages due to your 8 years drugging added to your original state(because i have and my friends too)
if you haven't taken nothing, do you think you would be better today or worse (with your original symptomes of course)?

[Thethinker]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I learn a great deal. Still the fact remains i am housebound, cant speak to no-one, have even trouble standing up. I have fear non stop. Is it also WD? Yes!! But even on paxil i had fear. I never had a relationship cause when i tried i felt so much tension and anxiety. Some of you had a life once. I never ever knew love, maturity or myself. Even before paxil i had much problems. I had so much trouble and fear with life and myself. I did some crazy things like gambling, binch drinkin ;..anything to escape reality. When i was 12 years old i skipped classes. I did everything from that age on to try to selfdestruct. flee from life. School, love, family everything. I didnt want to feel happy. I was in fear. Its almost like i enjoy fear and misery. WHO DOES THAT? Before, on, after paxil;..it doesnt matter. Perhaps i have a severe personality disorder;.who knows. i do know even before paxil i was of and on in hospitals cause of panic. From the age 17 i couldnt leave the country no more for vacations;..i would get so much panic and feel so unreal.

I dont want a pittyparty here. But i am sick in my head;..thats for sure. Its a bit more then an anxiety disorder. Now i have WD on top of it. But both make me sick. I havent been able to see friends or leave the house in 15 months now. Only a few times with parents to doctor. This is no life. On paxil i was a fat numb idiot but at least i had some life. Luc made my line in bold. Yes i wasnt a raving lunatic before paxil. I was just a lunatic. Ohh and peter breggin has some good ideas but he is a fanatic. i read his book. he even thinks BP and psychotics should be without meds.

This week i had so much panic that it felt like my CNS would give in. Never experienced this before. Like a hand came out of the earth and rip my cns out. It was so weird..like i was standing but my nerves were sitting. it was so scary and hell. I lay on the floor with epileptic spasms wishing i was death. So much fear. My mother was holding my hand and praying and my dad took some xanax for me quickly and it was hell. My mom called the ER and they gave me some seroquel (antipsychotics). i havent taken any yet. But now i can not even leave my mothers house. I am broke guys.

I feel so depressed. i dont want to be on paxil and fat and numb. but i dont see how i can beat the WD and the original disorder. I am 36 and never travelled, enjoyed friends, had a relationship or been happy. Seriously i havent. And when i think about the fact i will;..i shiver in fear. WHY AM I SO AFRAID OF BEING HAPPY.? Why shakes me to my core when i think of myself als a grown man? All this forums about how bad drugs are. How wrong paxil is. I know that;..but what to do if your disorder is so severe? I was diagnosed with "anxietydisorder with agoraphobia and severe identity and separation problems" (translated from dutch). So no drugs. Also i cant live with myself without drugs.
I think its best if i just end it for me. I am so so so tired.I feel like a kid waiting for his mother in the mall. Scared and alone.Like i did when i was 4/6/8/12/14/19/21/25/32/36 years old. All those years had episodes of me calling my mother with blind panic and real pure fear. My mother is now 65 years old and she doesnt have the strength anymore. I wish i was strong. i wish i didnt had this fear of everything since a kid. I will never get out of this. This is it for me guys. I cant take it no more. I will end my pain

[Luc]

Thinker, what you're going through is hell. This suffering is unimaginable. I so know it. But, believe me, there *is* a way out of it. There always is. The most important thing is to now somehow stabilise your system. As we said, there's always an option of reinstating at a lower dose, catching some breath, and then, very slowly, lowering the dose.

You know, I don't talk about this too much, but a big chunk of my life was for me a streak of terrible traumas. Yet, despite this, and despite the WD, I'm 100% positive that, step by step, you can heal from everything. I really mean it. And it also applies to the people who are suffering from psychosis - I know that you're not such person, but, if more serious conditions can be so effectively helped... Please, have a look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBjIv...layer_embedded

Also, there isn't late for anything in life. You will be able to heal from those drugs *and* from your original condition.

You mention that you have to rely on your family, etc. Well, I had it no different in many respects. There is nothing wrong about it. Sometimes, there are circumstances, which call for such help, and there's *nothing* shameful about it. On the contrary! The very thing that one human being helps another is one of the greatest things there are.

Thinker, just hang in there, and talk to us, if you only can. If you stabilise the situation, slowly, but surely, you will be able to heal, and to make up for what you didn't yet experience in life.

[stan]

if you are suicidal, you have to call emergency, your mother, and see professionals, the forum is unable to help you, we can only advise when someone wants taper;
that said, i try to understand all you explain, seems you are overhelmed by anxiety before paxil, during it was better, and today after in withdrawal and very bad;
before meds, i was in a similar situation as you, but not so acute than yours; on 13 years paxil i was half ok, and half worse because tolerance, i chose to taper and not continue to updose and add else



i see two paths:

- you try to held, and after months you will be better, it can take years and much suffering
- you reinstate progressively a drug and wait relief to come back, and after months or years, reevaluate your situation and maybe try an extra slow careful taper